Flip The Script

In the spirit of debate I wonder if you all will allow me to start some stuff. Keep in mind I don’t mean for this to come off as chauvinistic but I’d like to ask one not so simple question:
When did it become all about the woman?

If you go back to God’s original intent, women were created for the purpose of being a companion to man as well as a help in bringing man’s purpose to life.
Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.

However, somewhere along the way, women got the idea that this life was all about them. I know that is a sweeping, all encompassing statement but a great many women fall into that category. We even have a cliché that attests to this fact, “If momma’s not happy, no one in the house is happy.”

I know that usually works for married couples but what about the single “I don’t need a man” women. They definitely believe it’s all about them. To those women a man has to prove that he has the goods to be with them and not the other way around. Society even has men giving into this thought process.

Depending on a woman’s marital status you will see her willingness to show her hand. But single women are smart in that they play the role until they get you to commit, then that’s when the script gets flipped. When you are single, it’s all about the man. You get all the sex you want, as much space as she can stand, she might complain but not too much, unless the man doesn’t have a thing going on. To further my point, when the two of you are single she doesn’t bother you about kicking it with your boys, staying out late, watching sports, or whatever your thing is. When you marry them, it’s another story. None of your possessions are nice enough regardless of how much style you thought you may have had. She will slowly find a way to remove your stuff to one room or corner of the house. They are always on you to do more around the house. Stuff only they want done, usually, and if you don't do it, they complain about how sorry you are. I thought the woman was created to help the man, and let’s not even talk about the sex. Sex is the weapon used to keep you in line to make sure you keep her happy. If you aren’t married ask around, the woman uses everything in her power to influence the man to keep it about what she wants. How many women do you know who are pressuring their man to buy bigger and better? Bigger house, better car, more furniture.
Or worse you have the woman who emasculates the man and just runs him over and acts like he just has to deal with whatever she dishes out, especially if he knows what’s good for him. You see it on TV and you see it in real life and if their girls have it and they don’t, then your man ain’t working hard enough. That is just crazy to me. It's amazing with all this going on that women wonder why some brothers say they aren't ready for marriage yet. Could this be the one of the reasons? Despite our failed attempts to communicate with women, men do talk to each other and when it comes to relationships, we sometimes have a lot to say.

All this just sort of hit me as I was thinking one day and I was curious as to what many of you thought about it. I know it has some merit. I've experienced it on some level, but I've seen it at play in a lot of relationships, married and single. I know some of you are even tripping that I would even post a topic like this because in your mind, it is all about the woman and how dare I say different, right? I'm definitely going to pay, right? Well, as I said in my opening, I'm not trying to be chauvinistic or a mule for that matter, but I needed a little levity to drive my point home. So, go ahead, bring on the onslaught. But before you comment, push past my attempt to be comical/cynical and find the truth in what I’m saying and answer the question honestly.

Also, keep in mind that this is not saying that a man shouldn't treat his woman nice or treasure her. That's not my point. I believe in that all day long. What I'm dealing with is the mindset that I think prevails in a lot of relationships and in society and that is that ultimately what she wants is most important and her actions show it.

Holla Back Y'all.


FERGIE said...

Perhaps there are some elements of truth in your post, however from my perspective, relationships; specifically marriage should be about esteeming your partner higher than yourself. To me that means dying of self to please the other. Imagine how wonderful a union would be if both partners could put aside selfish motives. They wouldn’t have to worry about themselves because they know they other has their back (ride or die). The wife has no need to be selfish because anything she need she knows her husbands got her, and like wise the husband doesn't have to worry about himself because he knows his wife has him.

Shai said...

I call it a backlash to sexism. Not trying to justify it. It is like racism, you tired of unequal treatment. No I am not saying all men treat all women unequal. I do think that This is a man's world mantra says alot.

I can get with Fergie's comments. But really how many men or women are really exhibiting this today?

Rich, why do some men feel threatened when a women speaks up for herself? Really why the competition?

I have more to say but I will digress.

CapCity said...

i'm gonna sit back & watch this one play out;-). besides, i have NO idea - i'm a spectator in this game! hopefully, i can learn a thing or two.

Shai said...

O/T: Am I the only one having problems with opening the comments section in blogger?

Shelia said...

Interesting post. Its hard being an independent black woman because it seems that some men can't deal with a woman who thinks for herself and can take care of herself. Is it because that particular man is intimidated?
Another thing I see is some men expect a woman to perform wifely duties (in and out of the bedroom) but the woman is not his wife.
I said all of that to say, some of the women might be selfish but that works both ways. There's going to be give and take in any relationship and finding the balance is the challenge.

Mega Rich said...

@Fergie - that would be the right way to go about it, but that's not always happening.

@Shai - I see where you are going, but this isn't about women speaking up for themselves. What I'm saying is that you are seeing a feminine ideology shift taking place in the culture today. It's like saying, since we've been treated like chattel in the past, the only way to make it right is to run stuff now. I just think it is damaging to buy into the whole idealogy.

Sidebar: yes Shai, another of my friends complained about that very same problem.

@Sheila - generally, if a man is looking for those qualities in a single woman, it is because he is trying to see if she is wifey material. The word says when a man finds a wife he finds a good thing. How do you know you have a wife if she doesn't have any of the characteristics.

Most men aren't looking to think for the woman or place her in a subserviant role, but it seems women are expecting us to go against our makeup to please them. You don't find men asking women to act in a way that goes against the way they were created, but you do see women asking men to do that and for what -- to make the woman happy.

Diva said...

Good Post. I agree and disgree with some issues. I've heard that most women do change after marriage. I've tried not,but it happens. Not enought sex is the biggest issue with married couples. Now a days the wife and hushand have to work to provide. Sometimes there isn't enought hours in the day to satify everyone needs. And if you have children, that a whole nother story. LOL. But needs must be met and you try to acommodate when possible, but damn we (women) be tired. But I do believe that the man should be the head of the household. My husband is. He works hard, he's a great provider, great husband and father. I try not to loose sight of that. We all need out outlets. So I don't mind if he hangs out late sometimes or if he wants to watch football games on Saturday. So be it. He lets me hang out and do what I want as well. I think you have to compromise in relationships and communication is key!!!

Shai said...

Rich, what do you mean by makeup?

I am trying not to do tit for tat. The thing is it goes both ways. I have had men get turned off because I don't want to do all the household duties and work outside the home. One man twisted his mouth and rolled his eyes like it was unnatural. SMH.

I think women and men both are expecting all of unreasonable things from each other based on what society is deemed as making it.

And to expect a woman to act as wifey before the ring is not good. If she has qualities that exhibit she will be a good wife than fine. Vice versa, alot of women expect to a man go be a husband before they marry. That is a big problem to me. Shacking and that are causing alot of strife to me.

Shai said...

Rich, I cannot say I know the answers. I can throw out situational points. But really it is all a shift from how relationships should be conducted.

FERGIE said...

Weather we want to admit it or not there are predefined roles for women and men. I wrote a post about it while ago, didn't get to many comments. I wonder why?


Rich is correct often times we do ask men to go against what is natural for them, but it's not us asking men are called by God as husbands to do those things.

Not to get all preachy, but hey it is what it is.

Mega Rich said...

@Fergie - Maybe we didn't know where to find you then, but I will be sure and check it out. Without seeing your post, I can't comment on what God has called us to do. A lot of times the definition of what we are called to do is based on who you ask, but I will check to see if you quoted what thus sayeth the Lord.

@Shai - by makeup I mean - what comes natural for us.

FERGIE said...

Yes, Mega Rich please keep me straight...

Shai said...

So Rich what should women be doing in your opinion?

Mega Rich said...

@Shai -- I already have one question on the table. I'll have to think about yours before commenting.

Also, keep in mind, I'm not saying all women are guilty of this behaviour. It's written so that the reader would examine themselves to see where they fall, both men and women.

Mega Rich said...

@Fergie -- I left my comment at your spot. I know why you didn't get any comments. It's because the biblical view is an unpopular view.

Don said...

Great post. Made me even wonder how come it's all about the woman. Honestly, I can't answer the question. Damn...

But single women are smart in that they play the role until they get you to commit, then that’s when the script gets flipped.

True, so true in fact that I now consciously look for subtle things within a woman's personality which raises a red flag. I'm sure every man knows a woman will change at some point, but we hope it's not to the point where the man can no longer identify her.

Good post.

Shai said...

LOL. Don doesn't a man change to. I keep hearing once the hunt is over and what a man want is captured he does not have to continue doing things he did to capture the woman. That is what I have heard.

I do know that there are some women who play the role and then flip the script. Not saying it is right though.

FERGIE said...

AMEN my brother!

Shelia said...

There are some men who try to change women too; so it's not just a woman thing. To piggyback on what I said previously; the woman has to be secure with herself so she won't feel the need to be trying to change a man or make him feel less than a man. I think that it takes open discussions like this so men and women will know how the opposite sex is feeling about things. The ideal relationship would include both parties accepting each other as they are--the good and the bad.

Shai said...

I agree with Shelia. I think being vulnerable is scary. To be open and giving to another and trust they will treat you right takes courage. In this me-me, fast-food society, many folks don't have the patience or commitment to deny self for the uplifting of another.

GeckoGirl said...

Great post. I think Sheila touched on a very good point and I know I'm going to catch some flack but whatever. I think women have gotten caught up in the "independent woman" hype when that's not what we were ever called to be.

You mention God's intent for woman to be man's helpmate. If you notice (in the Bible and historically), women were never "independent". They went from being their father's responsibility to their husband's responsibility. In biblical days, when a woman was widowed, one of her husband's brothers had to marry her so that she wouldn't be left "uncovered" (lacking a man as the head of her household).

Women have gotten away from that role and take immense pride in being independent. However, that same attitude can cause problems going into marriage because women are not meant to be the head of the household. It's like culture shock to go from doing your own thing to submitting to your husband. I admit I am sometimes guilty of this but then I have to check myself and take a step back and let my husband be the man/head that he is called to be.

As far as changing after marriage, people need to be open and honest from the start. I let hubby know that what you see is what you get and I understood it was the same for him. As I like to say, you can't change the rules halfway through the game.

Shai said...

True Geckogirl. So was it God-given rules or just the sign of the times when women were not independent?

Mega Rich said...

I think women falling into independant roles had a lot to do with the prevailing culture of the day. In America, women got their first taste of independance during World War II (I think, maybe it was 1) when they had to hold it down while the men were away fighting. They worked the factories, they got the checks, they made the decisions. That was by and large caucasion women, but that put a wrinkle in the fabric that long held that women were supposed to stay at home and keep house. Over time, the lines have blurred mainly due to societal changes.

The African American community has taken a hit on many fronts. On the one hand the men are being boxed out while our women are getting a hand up. We are also getting incarcerated at alarming rates or falling to the lead of the streets, meanwhile sisters are having to do the dang thang in the abscense of the male. So I understand that a change has occured, but I think in order to get our relationships back to a healthy state, we have to desire God's way of doing things. And therein lies the problem. Despite all the changes that we endure, God's plan and purpose for our lives remains the same. As the word says, he is the same, yesterday, today and forever, so when you are experiencing issues in your relationships nine times out of ten it's not lining up with God's plan.

There will always be some give and take and a little push and pull, but I think one of the more subtle problems is that our relationships don't model God's view. Imagine Jesus doing what we want because we are the bride of Christ. That right there throws a monkey wrench in all that prosperity Gospel the church has been falling for, but that is another topic altogether.

DJ Black Adam said...

Interesting and pointed article.

Shai said...

Yes, Rich to see a man submit to God and do his thing would be awesome. Too many men quote the authority given in the Bible and don't take the responsibility and expect submission from the women.

Ticia said...

Great post!!!

@ Shai..good comment!

Mega Rich said...

Yes, a wise man submits to God, but whether he is submitted or not does not take away the fact that God's order places him as the head - holy or unholy.

Submission is tricky, because as Christians (given that the both of you subscribe to being believers) you are to submit one to another. But in terms of matrimony, the wife is called to submit. The husband is in turn called to love her, but loving her should not imply that she gets to run over him, which takes me back to my original question.

Don said...

Shai, I am sure some men do change. At least the odds say they do. I was only speaking from my experience when I fell into agreement. I agree with you on some men not having what it takes to allow the woman to completely submit. I think that's what you were saying.

Shai said...

Rich, why do men seem to revel in this headship. It is a title given with responsibility. Holy or unholy.

Vice versa men are not to dominate because they are head.

We, both men and women, have go own up to our parts. And not flaunt the titles. Yes, you are head men but are you using your head. Yes, women you must submit, have you picked the right man to be head.

Yes, there are some crazy women out there who are bulldozing over men and it is sad. The whole man-woman relationship is sad in society.Neither man or woman should be mistreating each other.

Mega Rich said...

I don't think it's a matter of reveling in it. It would be a non issue if men were not being challenged on it or women fighting against it. Like Don said, there are some men who don't have what it takes but that is where wisdom comes into play. Even amongst Christian couples you find this divisiveness in relationships, so where does it stop?

It's apparent you have an issue with the submission thing, but you are single, so submission should not really be an issue unless that has been of concern with potential mates. All I can offer is that we search ourselves and be real with ourselves and communicate our challenges one to another.

So, is that it. Women are fighting submitting? Is that why they feel it's all about them?

GeckoGirl said...

@ Shai - I think it was a combination of both. The Bible says that woman is a helpmate, not the one in charge. Also, I think a a lot of women (falsely) view not being independent as some kind of weakness, when it isn't. That's why there's all the talk about "strong black women".

I don't think the "good" men revel in the headship. They realize that it is an AWESOME responsibility that is not to be taken lightly. It's not about being in charge or bossing your wife around. It's about being the protector and covering over your household.

@ Don - You're right that some men don't have what it takes to be the head. That's why it's very important for women to be wise in who they choose to date/marry. In order to submit, a woman has to comfortable and secure in the fact that she can trust her husband to always do what's in their best interests (according to God's plan). If there's any doubt as to the man's competence/trustworthiness in that area, then a woman will have a problem submitting.

Mizrepresent said...

This is quite interesting, and i have to differ on many takes of this conversation, sure there may be women out there that fit this bill...but i'm not one of them...after being married for over 20 years, i know that i did everything to uplift my man, give his freedom, cater to his needs both inside and outside the bedroom and yet in this particular situation was not enough...not enough because he could not control my mind, my soul or my will. We are meant to be apart of each others life, to love and to cherish, but we are afterall individuals meant to enhance, conjoin yes, but not lose ourselves in the process. Marriage is work,a give and take,a bending but not breaking...there will be perfect days and less than perfect days, but if you understand the reason you are in it and the benefits you will survive and enjoy. No relationship survives dominance,'s not the way it was intended. Give, give, give and you will receive...this is what i take into my new's not a woman's not a man's a partnership people...but only if you really really want it!

denea marcel said...

Miz... I dig it.

Anonymous said...

I love how you're focusing on god's role for women but you're not focusing on his rule that YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE? Why is it that guys convenietly forget about this part.

Secondly, this all depends on the type of woman you marry. If you marry a MATERIALISTIC will have to live and satisfy a MATERIALISTIC women. There are some laid back women who understand the importance of being financially together on the bank account front rather than the home front (in other words they understand the important of your bank account looking good rather than your home looking good but you can't afford it).

In addition, just like SOME women can put on a front so can some men...this is why MEN AND WOMEN need to carefully discern who they are dating or hoping to marry and need to proceed SLOWLY.

Femigog said...

I wont speak on the Biblical aspect except to say that the bible is a much re-written text. Versions counter to the king james version describe women as equals and prophets in some cases (Phoebe for example) that being said I think that you have a bit of a point on the Independent Woman angle. Black women seem to be portrayed as so independent that we appear self sufficient and in need of no one. We reinforce this sometimes by becoming embittered and donning the "I dont need a man" persona in order to assuage our feelings of isolation. I notice this kind of language in myself and other women.
I think it is a bit unfair to expect a woman to go from independent to dependent or helper rather than equal just because a marriage took place. It really depends on how much communication went on before the "I dos" were said.
Good post.

KIKI said...

Alright! I gotta get in on this.

First let me say...TELL 'EM AGAIN, MIZ! This has nothing to do with who's in charge...GIVE & TAKE! With that being said...I was raised ole school; in a family where the women cooked, cleaned, disciplined the kids, and sucked & fucked their man every which way til Sunday, many working full-time jobs at the same time. So it was almost unavoidable that I would pick up these same habits. When I'm with a man, my goal is to please him "by any mean necessary" treat him as a King. Problem is that I am not treated as a Queen in return. After one too many of these experiences, the "I don't need a man" thinking kicks in. It's not so much of a "I'm independent" proclamation, its more of a "I'm tired of men's b*llshit" thang.

I do agree with you,Rich, that a woman should spend more time catering to & assisting her man rather than always stickin her hand out for this & that while giving ultimatums. But what I find fascinating is that it's these women who have men falling all over themselves to get at them, while good women like me, usually sit on the sidelines & watch? Hell, if they can get away with it, why shouldn't we? (not saying it's right, just giving 1 reason as to where that type of thinking may stem from)They'd rather have a nice show-piece instead of a "ride-or die" life partner. Trust...these women don't just "flip-the-script" cause theys married now...there were signs of her being a gold digger from day-one; brother man just missed the signs.

Makes you wonder how much of a role the man really plays in the definition of a woman's charater or in determining what she will or won't do.

Whew...sorry that was so caught up.

Mega Rich said...

I'm loving the discussions and the interesting angles. It's also illuminating how some comments key in on one central point.

To my anonymous friend, this post wasn't about sex before marriage, so that is why I didn't really go there. I'll have to be honest as well and say that most single Christians struggle with the whole sex thing. That is one reason why a lot of relationships have problems in the first place. People try to avoid the guilt of sexual sins and jump into a relationship that shouldn't have ever resulted in marriage in the first place.

@femigog -- love your honest take.

@kiki -- love your keeping it real.

GeckoGirl said...

@ femigog - No man (or woman) is an island. It's not about going from independent to dependent. When you have a successful marriage, both parties are INTERdependent. Both depend on the other. I need my husband just like he needs me. Together, we are better than we are apart. And just because I am my husband's helpmate does not mean I'm not his equal. I think a lot of people misconstrue submission as subservience and that is not the case.

@ Kiki - I'm not trying to pick on you but you have to ask yourself the question why you are continually treating these males (I won't call them men) like kings when they don't reciprocate. I can certainly see you getting tired of the bullsh*t but why keep dealing with bullsh*t men? I think that is one of women's biggest problems - they don't properly filter when it comes to the men they deal with. I value my time and choose not to give it to just anyone.

A man has NOTHING to do with a woman's character or what she will or won't do. She determines that for herself. Do I cook for my husband? Yes. Did I cook for every guy that I dated? No because not all of them were worthy of such treatment.

DurtyMo said...

Dang I had stuff to say but it's been said. *sigh* Rich thanks for stoppin by! Holla!

CapCity said...

y'all done got deep up in her'! & i LOVE it!
As posted on Fergie's spot - i think it applies here, too. This is what I believe is the source of ALL our ails (relationships, etc.):

Rich, U SAID a mouthful THERE (when u said it's hard to hear God's voice thru all distractions). We need to be willing to SIT QUIETLY on a regular basis & not just actively PRAYING - cuz too often we're praying for what we WANT. We need to sit QUIET & LISTEN for what will be said TO US by God!

tha's my two cent on it....

Vickie said...

Great post Rich, Speaking only from a single ladies point of view, marriage i leave that to you guys... I think in any relationship it has to start off with the love of "ones self". A spiritual backing is such a must,whether married or not. As a woman we are nurturing creatures so thats a given, we do what we think is required to get the man and to keep him,without losing your own identity. Knowing at any time he could change his mind, and when we decide the project has become to much for us we also start to stray... He is "man", i woman. SUBMISSION working on it,and at the same time so should he,well at least compromise, if he values you first, then the relationship, and frankly i wouldnt have it any other way. Lets face it every relationship is work single or married, but if its meant for you so shall it be.As for your question don't when it changed
been loving me forever...

I had originally stopped by to say thanx for the shout out and stumbled upon your post...

KIKI said... answer to your question...I keep treating these men like Kings because I was raised that ALLL men are kings and should be respected at all times. That's not saying a woman should "bow down" to a man, but when I say treated as a King, I'm not referring to payin bills & spendin all my loot. I mean asking "how was your day", rubbing his shoulders when he's had a long day, making him feel like he's THE MAN, in & out of bed. The one thing I DO know, is that the male ego needs to be stroked & my personal opinion is not enough women make men feel like men; we put them down & judge them instead of uplifting them. That's what I mean by treating them like a King. And I carry this thinking with me when I deal with any man; romantically or not.

And I'm not talking about men I date; I'm referring to men I've had "relationships" with for a year or more (4 to be exact) who show no signs of tom-foolery; hell, I date a man at least 6 months before I cook for him becasue he has to prove he's worth the time & effort. These men DO reciprocate in the beginning, but as mentioned earlier, somewhere down the line these men didn't feel like it was necessary to KEEP doing what they were doing to get me; kind of like "i've done enough. I'ma let her do all the work now." Sometimes it's because they just get lazy; sometimes it's because other folks get in your business and sometimes it's because we simply grow apart. Whatever The reason, when I no longer feel like I'm Queen; that's the end. (sidenote...they always come

As far as no man can determine what a woman will or won't do...let me ask a question. If you keep getting bit by a dog (no offense men), do you keep going up to that dog, or at some point does logic kick in and say Maybe I need to leave this damn dog alone cause I'm tired of getting bit? My point, ALL of our experiences in life determine how we deal with certain situations.

With the xception of my oldest childs father, I'm still pretty good friends with my ex's; so I'm not saying they're bad men; our relationships just didn't work. And based on the hurt I felt when those relationships ended, the point of my previous comment was...Yeah, I can definately see how a sister could come to that type of thinking. Believe me when I say that MY past experiences have only made me more anxious, excited & hopeful for the next one HE sends me!

Sorry..I did it again didn't I?

Shai said...

Yes, Rich put yourself in a woman's shoes (yeah it is hard). To submit someone being in charge of your household is deep. Especially since we are human and flawed, mistakes will be made. Factor in how some men lorde the headship over women even before they marry. So many factors.

So yeah it is all about me if I am to submit eventually. I am not saying I am about me like the women you described. I can say if chose a man to interact with in my life intimately, it is important he has the qualities I need. And no I am not exempt from possessing good qualities too.

GeckoGirl said...

I think Vickie touched on an important point - women "do what we think is required to get the man and to keep him". But the problem is, women aren't supposed to get the man. The Bible says a man who FINDS a wife not a man who was hooked or got by a woman... Ladies, stop trying to get a man and do you. It's like the movie, if you build it they will come.

@ Kiki - I feel what you're saying. However, in regard to men feeling it's necessary to continue whatever they did to get you, some of that is human nature. Think about when you first start a job, you're bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, dressed to the nines, getting in early and on point all the time. After a while, you still do your job well, you just don't go above and beyond.

Does my husband bring me flowers as much as he did when we were dating? No...BUT he shows his love for me in other ways. He may not bring flowers every week but my car is always clean, etc. So I could take it as he's slipping or getting lazy with regard to the flowers but that's not the case at all. If you haven't already, you might want to check out the book The Five Love Languages.

To answer the question about the dog - no I wouldn't keep going up to THAT dog but I wouldn't necessarily think all dogs are going to bite me. Just like one bad experience with a dog can cause a child to have an irrational fear of dogs, bad experiences with men can cause women to have irrational fear/anxiety of dealing with men. You have to recognize it for what it is and not paint all men with the same broad brush. Women do it all the time then pitch a fit when men say all women are gold diggers, women these days don't know how to cook, etc. Musiq said it best in one of his songs - "I'm not to blame for the pain that was caused by previous cats".

KIKI said...

gecko girl...I think we're basically on the same page. I am not one of those women who lump all men into one catagorie; gereralization & stereotypes are one of my biggest pet peeves. Have I been hurt before? Sure I have! Have I hurt someone I've said I love? While unintentional...Yes! Do I hold these past hurts against the next man...No! I take him for the man he presents to me & accept him as he is, just as I would do with anyone else. I also agree with Vickie. Do I do things to "get" or "keep" a man? No...I am who I am from day one and that NEVER changes. It's also why I said I look forward to seeing whom HE "sends" to me next.

As far as the losing excitement thing (ie job); that I honestly can't say I can relate to. I go above & beyond in all that I do. I'm a passionate person, and if I start to lose my passion (work, relationship, friendship) and find I'm not giving 110%, then it's time for a change. Sure we all have our days where we just arent "feelin it", but to use your example of a job, if more than a month goes by where I am just doing what I'm doing to get by and not giving it my all with enthusiasm, and I've done what I can to correct the problem but nothing changes, I start looking for employment elsewhere. Same thing with my relationships.

I don't know if your husband was the first man you seriously dated; if so you're a rare breed & very lucky woman. But for most of us, we usually have to go through a few relationships before we find the one that's right for us. All I'm saying is that people deal with certain experiences in different ways. Some decide after a few failed relationships, they'd rather not go back down that road and claim they're "independent". Others, like myself, see them as learning experiences & apply the knowledge in their next relationship.

And thanks for the recommendation. I'll definately check that book out. Like I said...I'm still learning & I'll take any help thats offered.


And ps... I looooves me some Musiq. Now that man speaks truth!

Literary Felonies said...

Well, I've been trying to weigh in on this subject since yesterday morning- non-compliant assed computer. Here's my take on all of this:

As this subject seems to be a growing phenomenon, two things com to mind: 1.)Women must be liars or 2.) Men choose wrong. Yep, I think I'm going with number 2 here. Interestingly enough, not once throughout this piece nor in the comments have I read any confessions of responsibility nor accountability in terms of the choices men make. On this subject I am hardly sympathetic. Of the good women out there, and I can blindly lob a rock outta my window right now and hit one who'd be happy to cook/clean/rideordie/suck/fuck/fight/make-up/serve/support/encourage/dub king/be queen/furiously love their man. I just find, just think that men choose wrong more often than not. And, in my opinion, that choice is made more on the basis of physicality- looks, pedigree, achievement, looks again, then it is on actual "relationship", dig- the real relating, one to another. In keeping with my opinion, I find that men choose women on three base criteria: Acceptable, Unacceptable and Dream Girl. Let me explain:

ACCEPTABLE- The educated, articulate one that can possibly meet momma. Ranging from pleasant on the eyes to WOW, this is generally the pool of opportunities from which the marriage choice is made.

UNACCEPTABLE- also known as cut buddy, freak, my friend, my special friend and unless marginal to superior-ly fine, she's a private pleasure.

DREAM GIRL- my all time hated favorite. She's your Halle Berrys, Janet Jacksons and Beyonces for which wall posters of idle worship were created. If she has her own: money, great, but not prerequisite. Nope, her beauty alone is the great qualifier. Problem is, like dreams, she don't really exist either once reality kicks in. Don't believe me, check it: Janet Jackson twice divorced, Halle Berry twiced divorced and victim of past abuse, Beyonce- is Jay-Z fuckin' baby Riahnna this week or not?

Biblically speaking, since the subject went there, yes God created the woman to be a 'helpmeet' and to submit to him, but this submission doesn't mean that she instantly becomes absent of critical thinking and/or important decision making simply 'cause she got married. In fact, and realistically speaking, and Femigog hit it on the head, you can't expect a woman who's spent a ga-zillion years developing a healthy level of independence; making all decisions, fixing all her problems and essentially taking care of ALL her responsibilities to suddenly abandon her educated and groomed sensibililties just 'cause she said "I DO." It's unrealistic, it's idiotic and it's a set up for disaster. And while the bible does talk about submission, that submission is one-to-another with the understanding that though the man is the head of the household, he's neither ruler or dictator, but director of God's directive. This 'helpmeet' status was not created for the purposes of man's agenda nor for man feeling superior at the utterance of "my woman" as if he took on some pet mule to do his bidding. Submission is simply the supporting/getting under God's appointed mission. Got that? God's appointed mission, not man's personal agenda! Which means that EVERY decision that needs to be made is not always made my him, NO not at all. In fact, help was provided 'cause the man couldn't do it all by himself. DID YOU HEAR THAT FELLAS? There was and still is plenty of work to go around and bringing someone into help means the divvying up of roles and responsibilities- a pure partnership. Let me say that again- a PARTNERSHIP.

And, while we're on the topic of the bible, getting back to original point, the bible says that we are to know people by their fruit. Bold, italicize and underline KNOW and FRUIT. To know means just that, "know". When we know something it is without a doubt. It is the thing we'll battle to the death for 'cause we KNOW, we just know. FRUIT- this is the evidence of that which we KNOW; what this person consistently produces, not what one either believes they'll eventually produce, as in potential, nor what we think we can make them/teach them to produce. When you KNOW them by their FRUIT, you avoid interpersonal dumb-assed talks with yourself saying/thinking stupid shit like, "I can handle this," or "I can make this work."

Let me say this, too. People change! Life, over the course of time changes us- we get older, hopefully more mature and wise. Our physical bodies change, our outlook and opinions change. To expect that the people around you will stay the same forever is not only impossible, but unrealistic as well. While I don't necessarily dispute the perception that women change after marriage, I think if men were wholeheartedly honest with the reasons they made their choice, not wanting to take anything away from those of you men who did so wisely and are happy to boot, I believe that one may discover that it was probably more on meeting a list of criteria (*Fine-check, *Fat ass-check, *Well read-check, *Freak-in-bed-check, *Other men want her-check *Articulate-check, *Likes/listens to jazz-check, *Got her own money-check, *Fine-fat-assed, oh, yeah that's checked already, whew!) versus through actual relationship. Further clarifying my opinion though, I do not, however, support the notion of getting a man any way you can, ladies. Yes, I too have to contend with countless, irrational statistics reminding me that we outnumber men on a global scale, and that I’m more likely to be executed by a terrorist than end up married, but that’s not any excuse for expending great amounts of energy to snag a husband, only to completely jack his head up when you finally exhale. Shame, shame, shame.

Call 2 Arms said...

Mega Rich,

What is it all about?

God? The man? or something else?

I think the task of helping bring purpose to someone's life is the most important thing in life. A life without purpose is a useless life. I also think it works great when women marry men who has a purpose that is aligned with their own. I know women also have a purpose and calling.

Literary Felonies said...

Awesome subject by the way! Man, I love a good topic that fosters this kind of discussion and MegaRich you did that thang!

GeckoGirl said...

@Kiki - I'm all for the truce :-) We do have differing views on one point though. Just because a job isn't exciting everyday doesn't mean it isn't the job for me. Relationships (job, romantic, whatever) are somewhat cyclic. There are up times, down times and in between times. However, I think a lot of people think that if things aren't up all the time then something is wrong and they need to bail (in jobs and relationships). You can't go into a relationship/marriage thinking that it's always going to be fireworks because it's not. That's why traditional marriage vows include the words for better or for worse. I think people have an idealistic/unrealistic view of relationships/marriage these days. When everything isn't roses all the time, they quickly move on to the next thing. I definitely have way more up days than down days in marriage but every single day isn't out of a fairytale. Some days I'm just grumpy for no reason and don't want to be bothered. However, if there isn't a vast majority of up days then yeah, something is wrong.

Hubby wasn't the first guy I seriously dated but I don't view the previous relationships as failures. If you view a relationship that doesn't end in a marriage a failure then I can see how one would become discouraged. That wasn't my point of view. I lived in the moment so to speak. I enjoyed each relationship while I was in it and wasn't pressed about whether or not it was leading to marriage. Though I always assumed I would get married one day, it was never a goal or a focus for me. I knew that it would come one day without any undue effort on my part. I trust God's judgement more than my own so I wasn't worried about it. My only prayer was that He would cause me to recognize whoever He had chosen for me.

KIKI said...

That's my prayer, too, geckogirl!

And I do have to admit, that my one fault (ok, maybe I have more, but I'll never admit to it LOL) is that I expect others to love & act as passionately as I do and that's just not that case all the time. Again, I'm still learning, and am finding that diferent people express their love in different ways.

KIKI said...

And Oh yeah, giving standin O to literary felonies! (clap, clap, clap)

Literary Felonies said...

Kiki, I humbly thank you darlin' for the standin' O. As is the name of this comment box, so is the dialogue between you and Geckogirl- Richly Spoken Comments! While it's rare that I am ever short of things to say, I'm never far from learning, and you all have given me much to meditate on.

Geckogirl, thank you, thank you, thank you for reminding us that while it's work, there are some great days in marriage- but it is still work.

GeckoGirl said...

@ Kiki - Your comment is all the more reason to run out and get The Five Love Languages. Many, many times people in a relationship have different love languages. Therefore your idea of loving/acting passionately may physical affection but your mate's may be acts of service (washing your car, etc.). So what you think is a man not being passionate is really passionate, just in a different love language than you. I think women have been somewhat brainwashed into thinking that if a man doesn't bring you flowers every week and do other grand "romantic" gestures then he doesn't truly deeply love you.

GeckoGirl said...

Thanks literary felonies. Marriage does take effort but it doesn't have to be hard and there are definitely (or should be) more great days than not. I think the hardest thing, and part of the reason so many marriages fail, is that you have to shift your whole mindset. You have to "die to self" and realize that it's not about YOU anymore, it's about US.

Also, it's especially hard for people (both men and women) to do that - to exhale, so to speak, and have total and complete trust in another mere mortal, to believe that they have your best interests at heart no matter what and will not lead you astray. So when I hear women saying how they plan to keep a secret stash (money) from their husbands, etc. then I know that they have not yet achieved that level of trust and faith. And it's unfortunate because it's like trying to play basketball with one hand tied behind your back. Yeah you might do okay but you'll never achieve your full potential that way.

Mega Rich said...

You all have been busy today. I wasn't feeling too well, so I missed all the fun. Let me catch up and see where we are.

Literary Felonies said...

Geckogirl, I'm over hear stomping my feet and if I were at home I'd light a damn match! You're preaching good, girl. Die to self. I think that'll preach by itself.

Now let me say that I couldn't agree more that the trust issue in mere mortals is challenging. Man, I have my ongoing trust issues with the Father- admittedly, so I know I have some deep rooted issues with man. Additionally, the issue of whether to exhale or not exhale has been a hop topic amongst my running cohorts for years. Well, since Terry dropped her book, and that's undoubtedly a hot blog topic in and of itself. Now, I, too, cringe at the notion of "stashing" away anything from the one I pleged my life, love and devotion. Sometimes, when I'm privy to marital insights, and topics like this are grist for gossip, marital partners come off more like co-conspirators instead of collaborators, always readying themselves for "that day" when "that person" shows their proverbial ass. Makes me wonder why they bothered getting married in the first place. I gotta tell ya, while I believe in the institution of marriage wholeheartedly AND believe that two willing, committed-to-the-commitment, hardworking individuals can develop a phenomenal one, it's issues within it like this that start me to charting a course otherwise.

Mega Rich said...

Not much left to say, ya'll did it up in here. I too would recommend The Five Love Languages, I learned about those some years back and it was a blessing. I've recommended the book a time or two in the past. In fact, I probably need to read back up on it because refreshers are always good.

You all totally exceeded my expectations. I was hoping to get just a few comments from which maybe I could glean a morsel or two, but you all served up a meal. Thanks for participating. Oh, and feel free to keep it going.

@geckogirl and kiki -- love both of you classy ladies. We should all be able to agree and disagree and keep it moving. Well done ladies.

@literary felonies -- you know I'm sitting back smiling. All I'm going to say is I told you.

@shai -- just keep taking it one day at a time. Don't put any undo pressure on yourself. When you get properly joined, the two of you will definitely compliment each other.

and to everyone else (not to downplay anyone's contribution) thanks for coming by and playing in my yard.

GeckoGirl said...

LF - At the risk of being cliched, I think the foundation for a healthy marriage is set in CHILDHOOD. Your relationship with your (earthly) father sets the stage for all future relationships with men. If you know that daddy loves you unconditionally and that you can trust him and he lets you know that you're his princess, you know that kind of love can exist and will settle for no less in marriage. Just like they say men marry their mothers, women marry their fathers. If you've never witnessed or experienced such a love, you're skeptical that it exists and will "sleep with one eye open". You will always be waiting for other shoe to drop or for the other person to show their ass.

People want marriage and all the good that comes along with it but sadly, a lot of us are ill-equipped. You wouldn't try out for the softball team if you didn't know anything about the sport. Or maybe you would, but surely you wouldn't be surprised when you were unsuccessful. Instead of trying to get a man (or a woman, for that matter), we all need to focus on being the best people that we can be.

When I first met my husband I most definitely was not ready to be anyone's wife (or even girlfriend at the time). That's not to said I was screwed up or didn't have my ish together but I wasn't mentally ready/mature enough to die to self. I was a spoiled daddy's girl and it was all about me and what I wanted. I truly believe that's why God didn't even allow me to think of hubby as a prospect at the time. If I had, we would have probably dated and broken up and gone our separate ways. It wasn't until four years after we met that we began dating. In the meantime, God was preparing both of us.

Literary Felonies said...

Geckogirl, I'ma hafta put an offering in the mail to you, hon! That's some mighty good ministry you preachin'! All humor aside, I need to be reminded to keep God in the equation, which I don't, and trust Him for and in marriage. What's the bible say, "unless He build, he that labor does so in vain."

KIKI said... aint nothin but love up in here. We can always learn from each other. Personally, I'm over here takin notes like a mugg!lol

LadyShay said...

Well Damn. I would jump in, but everything I would say has been said. All I can say is that personally If I am with a guy I give him the same respect that I expect. No one is in charge or more important than the other. The only time that the script gets flipped is when the man doesn't uphold his side of the deal. But yeah. Great post.

Mizrepresent said...

Big ups to the ladies Geckogirl, Kiki, and Lit Felonies....i really enjoyed reading your discussion and thanks to Mega Rich for another fine topic!

MysTery said...

This is a great post. However, I think one should be done on how men change after they get in a relationship or married...